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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:31 am 
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Medium One
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@BarbaroiusBob
I love yoda. And StarCraft/II.

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Complex base building? You mean base building that looked cooler but was otherwise unremarkable? Real complex base building can be found in games like Supreme commander, where certain buildings gain benefits from being next to each other, while also leaving them vulnerable to artillery, air strikes and nukes. What Relic did was revolutionary, being a radical step away from the standard formula, quickening the game to the fun parts, and giving it something to say over Star Craft II.

Specific units for specific roles? You mean spam spam spam until Relic nerfs the unit with a patch? Lets look at SM. Scouts, while cool, became useless once you got to 2nd/3rd teir because they were weaker marines and everyone had detector units, plus they had little damage output. They'd kill one or two guys, but they were so expendable and replaceable that it didn't matter. Tac squads are just weaker versions of Terminators. Assault termies sucked. Assault squads and whirlwinds were the only special role units in the army. Eldar were the only ones who had anything close to true specialization, and they still have aspect warriors. Really, you always upgraded to missiles, no matter what.

Micro and Macro? You want to see real skill based and interesting macro, go to SCII and SupCom. Those are two unique and near perfect economy systems, with the scale of SC allowing for crazy amounts of macro to win games. Micro? That's the name of the game in DowII, you need to be able to micro, and being close up and directing all of your units in their gory madness is what 40K is all about. How can you macro in a smaller scale game like DoWII? I can't see the issue here.

Finally, what's so bad about beautifully rendered Eldar? The Farseer to flat-chested for you?

Well, most of these points were taken in comparison to the first one. I know that base building in the first DOW was about as simple as it could be, but at least it was better than in the second one. The thing about specific roles goes more like this: Hormagaunts kill infantry, hormagaunts don't kill tanks. Wraithlord kills infantry, wraithlord kills tanks. That's about as much difference as you find in most of the second one. I know it was not much different in the first one, but as an example, you just wouldn't put dark lances on an anti-infantry squad in the first one. Now in the second one, with numbers being so small, you just have to get the biggest weapons. I fail to see how the second one is micro. In the games I played I would just get two tarmegant squads, two hormagaunt squads, two fexes and the tyrant, and say "kill until you get to the enemy base. And once there, kill." Worked every time. And again, the micro-macro in the first one is good when you compare it to the second one. But I'll accept, I only played as tyranids in the second one, so I'm probably wrong on this side. And the eldar being lame is mainly because 1. They are lame in the animation 2. On the video of the eldar campaign in Retr][bution they don't seem to have anything as interesting as the tyranids, and most of the scenes you see are about either eldar getting powned, or eldar going 50-50 on someone. I think that they just didn't work as much on the eldar as they did on the first one. And the farseers breast size was rather perfect for my liking (b~_^)b .

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That shot doesn't give me many clear looks at the tails, but I can't see anything wrong with the visible ones. Not sure what's the issue here, or why you're citing it as a reason the game is lame. The tail design should be a minor quible if anything.

Well, you might be right here, that is mainly of my personal disliking. I just very much love tyranid tails being smooth.

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Well, Relic needed to make at least 3 different HQ units that allowed the army to play differently, and as it stands, the Prime is a smaller Hive Tyrant without the psychic powers and the Terv already has the support role taken by the Hive Tyrant (+ the spawn Termagant would be a pain in the ass to make workable), so Relic had to invent new ones, which I frankly wish existed in our dex.

Well, first of all, when they say ravener and lictor alpha they are just making the swarm sound like a herd. And if you would like them to be in the codex, I think they are. I think that with lictor alpha they'r pretty much saying Deathleaper. And with ravener alpha they'r pretty much saying Red Terror. I think that in the three leader choices there should be the hive tyrant, commanding the broods in aggressive rampages along with the greatest beasts, the tervigon, leading the swarms in less aggressive and more defensive ways, and the prime, that should come along with a squad of warriors. This would be quite cool since the upgrades would be mainly done to the warrior squad. And the prime would be more focused on micro and tactics.

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The VC has always been our big gun, it just happens to have shitty rules that don't reflect what it's supposed to do. Relic is just getting it right.

Well, you may be right here.

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You seem to have forgotten the RPG elements. HQs and squad leaders no longer come out the door with full gear, you have to level them up as you go along, killing and such. This is just a newb as far as Warbosses go, so he's out to make a name for himself in his first big campaign. It's perfectly reasonable and fits the game. Also, look at the Warboss models. Aside from Gazzskull (sp?), they aren't covered in cybork bits. It's an optional upgrade in the Ork dex, not standard equipment.

Even if it is this way, they are doing it wrong. The rise of a warboss usually goes as follows. A nob is successful and makes it to armoured nob, then mega armoured nob, the into a killa kan or as a tank hunter or any other more elite roles, and only once he's on the near warboss level he will get to that remarkable size. A thing about orks is that they grow along with their status in the army, and that's how you get the nobs being giants to human eyes, and the warboses being taller than the first level of your regular house.

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It's just an intro, whats more, you're pretty darn late to be moaning about all this. Where have you been the past year or so? The original intro makes about as much sense ("Hmm, the charging orks are suffering no casualties from our point blank range bolter fire! Here, me the big dread with my assault cannon, how about I shoot the ground in front of the hill instead of the orks! Lets charge, UPHILL against a DEDICATED CC UNIT, when we've got a nice defensive position, overwhelming firepower and tons of support on the way!"), but it's completely badass and crazy, and that's all that matters. You're just being picky.

Well, intros can be used for many things, but mainly it will tell the new player, this is what you'll see in this game. In starcraft they use the intros to explain story line as well as a bit of show on what the game's like. In medieval total war they use it to show off the graphical quality by showing in-game footage. But in DOW and DOWII they just use it to show off the power and bravery of space marines in all the wrong ways. I didn't rant about the intro of the first one because the thread was talking about the second one, but if you want me to take on another persona I'll gladly do it, and then I could do it with another thousand games with crappy intros.

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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:18 pm 
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Ianuchu, I've got this crazy idea. I know it might seem new and radical to you, but bear with me for a moment. If you hate a game so much (and for purely superficial reasons at that) you could continue to rant endlessly about it... or just not play it.

Not spending money on, and not wasting games that don't tickle your fancy might make your life a great deal less stressful.

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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:58 am 
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the biggest error i see when people refer to Dawn of War 2 is that they call it a real time strategy.

it is not an RTS... it is a real time TACTICAL.

a true rts allows you to build your own army and involves bases, like DOW1.

a tactical game is one where you have squads and limited resources to get a job done. this tactical style of gameplay has been around since the beginning, but it seems to have caught on most in the last few years.


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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:54 am 
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I agree, it's a tactical game, but a bad one at that. Despite the fact that the game is purely tactical, you still have to train and upgrade you units on-field. And you still have a base to defend, that if you loose, you loose the game. It is not imposible to make a good combination between tactical and base defence, but they just didn't get it here.

I gues I did go rather overboard with my delivering of opinions... But I dont think the answer is to just ignore the exisntence of the things I don't like. Relic has done a number of things that I dislike. In DoW1 the imperial guard hardly had any emphasis on their numbers, and the the baneblade was diminute. But I don't think that the answer is to look the other way. If I don't speak out against the things I disaproove of, there is no chance that they ever will change.

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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:57 pm 
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ianuchu wrote:
I gues I did go rather overboard with my delivering of opinions... But I dont think the answer is to just ignore the exisntence of the things I don't like. Relic has done a number of things that I dislike....


No worries. :wink: I guess I should be more clear too. I really quite enjoyed the single player Campaign in Dawn of War (the original, not so much the Winter Assault expansion). As I played through DoW2 I found more and more things I personally disliked or disagreed with. I ended up with a long list of things about the game that irked me.

But I figure Relic is making the game to appeal to as many people as possible, and almost those people aren't me. :P And so when dealing with private companies the only vote that really counts is your spending dollars, so I just didn't buy any of the expansions. No one is forcing me to play a game I don't like. Telling us how much you hate the game isn't ever going to reach the exec's at Relic, no chance at all. (A mate working for Creative Assembly on some the recent Total War games. No one there cared one whit what anyone wrote in their own forums (let alone external ones) so long as they sold games and made a profit, that was all that counted.)

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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:15 am 
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Well I gues it's true that I should not be complaining to you guys.

Have you heard about shogun two: total war?

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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:47 pm 
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It would be better to start a new topic than to de-rail this one.

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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:08 pm 
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I just finished the tyranid campaign for retribution... all i have to say is...

goddamn easymode casuals... VERY linear maps, even on HARD mode its easy...

the fight with the final boss, i went in with 2 tyrant guards, a swarm lord, 4 squads of warriors with venom cannons, and my tyrant with a venom cannon... sum total of losses? two tyrant guard, which were easilly replaced.

i didnt fail a single mission, they were that easy, hell, the only time my tyrant died, was when it was actually SCRIPTED into dying in one level...

im going to have to play the next campaign on the hardest difficulty of all...


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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:30 am 
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That will be in the case that Retr=][=bution pays off. I'm not very sure it will.

Sory about the Shogun thing...

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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:22 am 
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ianuchu wrote:
A Lictor!? And not only a lictor! A retarded one too! Because it came out of camouflage before making the kill! And look! He even failed the shot. Well I've had enough batle for today, might as well just die and call it a day."


Ok, I disagree with everything but am only going to mention this.... because that IS what a lictor does! That's EXACTLY what our "super-sneaky" lictors do: They pop up and yell "Boo!" before being shot full of holes and promptly dying.

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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:03 pm 
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And it should not be so. I've noticed that Retr][bution seems to want to get the tyranid stuff right, which is why they got the HVC the right way around. So why not do the same with the lictor!?

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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:22 pm 
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Well, I haven't played the Tyranid campaign (Just a few maps), but completed it with Eldar.

I must say, I love the game, like the story and really felt it as an intensive strategy game. I played with a friend for the whole campaign on max difficulty as I have done with DoW 2 and Chaos Rising.

What I think from what I tried is the worst thing about the game is: The maps and completion of the campaign is deadly liniar. And if you want to play another race through the campaign, you will just play the exact same thing, just with a slight different viewpoint.

I will pick up the Tyranid part sometime soon, when I feel like completing the game again ^_^

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