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 Post subject: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:45 pm 
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I'll just leave this right here...http://dai.ly/boAW7g

Sure the Gollum voice instructing you to "return" "destroy", and "consume" is not my cup of tea, but I like what I see!

Apparently, there is a single player campaign for every race this time around (and quite possibly another race added to the lineup). Relic is also opting to use just the steam platform instead of having to log into "games for windows" (always hated having to log in to two programs AND be online just to play). Also, this is supposedly just a precursor to tide us over till DoW III releases in the next 2 years! May I never have to play a Blud Rayven muhreen again! Yipee!


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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:03 pm 
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=][= vs. Tyranids? And it's not a mod? Sign me up!

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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:38 am 
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A Tyranid campaign... would be interesting to see how they implement that.

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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:57 am 
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Ooh-la-la, look what we have here

Image
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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:45 pm 
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Big One
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I wonder how they're going to do a Tyranid campaign with the DoW II set up, of all things. I actually uninstalled DoW II because it didn't really appeal to me. There wasn't much army or resource management, there was barely any grappling for position, and there was very little variety in gameplay. The plot was fine for 40k, but in the end I didn't really want to play it all that badly after a while. I personally like watching the scales tip back and forth as two armies slaughter one another over a mcguffin or a field of mcguffins, knowing that whoever claims the most or best mcguffins for longest will win the game. DoW II seemed more like it was all about making Space Marines match the fluff: "here's six guys. They're all you need to save four planets from an entire swarm of hyper-evolved aliens. Yes, this is how ridiculously potent we mean to portray Space Marines. No, they do not use any strategies other than marching across a field, and no, there are no defensive positions to speak of. The enemy chooses its ground and you go to it. And yeah, I guess there's multiplayer if you want."

With Tyranids you need a swarm, but in DoW II we as players won't be controlling a swarm. Think the Swarmlord and DoM will show up? Maybe those two units will be all the Tyranids need in force to haphazardly dominate a planet. Maybe they'll introduce a hydraphant that can be controlled and it might be able to beat Force Commander and friends.


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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:02 pm 
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CapnWellpoint wrote:
Think the Swarmlord... will show up?


See above image.

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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:18 pm 
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nice find Hive Node.

I found a snippet of information somewhere (don't ask me where) that the swarmlord could actually spawn 'massive swarms of tyranids', and that it's basically a walking army builder calling the nids out of hiding.

Also, in an interview about dow2 Retr][bution, some designer said you could tailor your team as well - as example he said "You can walk around with 4 ork heroes, recreating the old feel of Dow2, or alternatively you can walk around with 8 big units of sluggaboys - it's all up to you!" That may get the stuff back to your liking a bit more as well, Capn.

One thing that I'm screaming "YES!!!" about is that they're doing away with Games for Windows Live. even though it has given me a lot less headaches since I moved into my own place (I now somehow have an open NAT, where before I couldn't get that if it'd save my life), meaning I can play with guys who have strict NAT (as opposed to not being able to, meaning I couldn't play with ANY of my friends who had DoW2), I still would feel a lot more relaxed not needing to work with the archaic and user-unfriendly interface that is GfWL.

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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:23 pm 
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vonny wrote:
One thing that I'm screaming "YES!!!" about is that they're doing away with Games for Windows Live.
Hallelujah sista! Can I get an AMEN!?!

That pic made my day Hive, could care less about Swarmy though, just the possibility of the other "big 5" gets me all excited. Please oh, please oh, please let there be an OOE that I can stomp around and krump things up as. If we ever get around to playing some co-op, I totally got dibs!


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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:21 am 
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Hive Node wrote:
CapnWellpoint wrote:
Think the Swarmlord... will show up?


See above image.


I didn't realize that thing was carrying bone swords. There I go, though, I guess. Still, I wish the game had been more like the original Dawn of War.

Quote:
Also, in an interview about dow2 Retr][bution, some designer said you could tailor your team as well - as example he said "You can walk around with 4 ork heroes, recreating the old feel of Dow2, or alternatively you can walk around with 8 big units of sluggaboys - it's all up to you!" That may get the stuff back to your liking a bit more as well, Capn.


It's good that they're trying to expand our options overall, but I'm not really looking for a customizable army that I can just march around. It makes sense that I would command that sort of thing in a more realistic world, but I kind of suspect it's still going to be marching from enemy position to enemy position, bombing everything in my way until the main big bad is dead. DoW was a little like that too in the single player, but all the same there was more going on. I had functional stealth units, anti-armor teams, fast harassers, and forward defenses to work with. Some of the best multi-player games involved fighting to the bitter death over a single strategic point close to one person's base. I just like the fights to have more meaning in the big picture and less indication that the lives of my soldiers are worth more than their weight in solid platinum. I don't care what Avitus thinks about Guardsmen. I am the Commander and he is my Marine, and my command is that he put his helmet back on, that he adopt some humility, that he stand in line with his fellow Marines, and that he hold a defensible point the enemy MUST attack at cost of their longevity.

That's how 100 Marines can hold a planet. Find a spot the enemy has to battle for, reinforce it, then garrison the thing with super soldiers. If there's nothing on the planet the enemy wouldn't face down 100 Space Marines for, then there's no reason to commit Space Marines to the planet.


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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:33 pm 
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Don't know if anyone has been following the news on this or not, but here is a neat little article.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/10/18/dawn- ... n-preview/

I think they were confused about something though. I've read somewhere else that the campaign hero is called the "Hive Lord", and that the Swarmlord was just a tier 3 late game powerhouse unit.

Either way, it makes more sense with the Hive Lord as the Swarmlord currently isn't very mutable.

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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:51 pm 
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yea, relic's own announcement site says it's the hive lord for the campaign. I can see why they made the mistake though, as he looks to be wielding 4 swords in the images they posted. But in any case this looks promising and exiting. When was it coming out again?

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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:04 am 
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It was confirmed to be the Swarmlord, in the campaign you will have the Hive Lord first and the Swarmlord will arise during the Tyranid campaign, at least that has what has been said on the Relic site, we shall see.


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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:50 pm 
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Not to offend anyone out there, but in my opinion, Dawn of War II is laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame!

Let's look at some of the best things about Dawn of War (the first one). Complex base building, Specific units for specific roles, strategy levels allow for micro and macro, cool Eldar.
Now let's look at the same subjects in Down of War II. No base building, hardly any difference apart from tank hunter and not tank hunter, no strategy level, only allowing for macro, lame Eldar.

Basically, everything that was good in DOW 1 they have destroyed.

And as if this was not enough, they portray the tyranids in all the wrong ways. First of all,
Image
[Open in new window]

Everybody please look carefully at the tails of the gaunts.
See them?
Well then you'll have realized; THESE ARE 'NIDS! NOT ALIENS!

second of all, let's look at the leaders:
Hive tyrant = Perfectly good
Lictor Alpha = WTF?
Ravener Alpha = Now you'r just being stupid...

Next, let's think about what they said about the HVC
Quote:
Venom Cannons – which is a massive ranged anti-vehicle weapon that the Tyranids use.

If you ask me, I would not use a HVC against a tank. And according to the discussion in this thread viewtopic.php?f=36&t=14700, nobody would.

It is not only the Tyranids I dislike in this game, let's look at Orks.
Image
[Open in new window]

So what, is this a warboss? No, I don't think it is, I think it's an overgrown nob.
Ok, so what are the main things to look for when looking for an Ork warboss? Generally a body upgraded with cyborg stuff beyond reckoning.
Now look at the picture.
What do you see? A warboss with extreme cybernetics? No, I think it's an overgrown nob.

Now the opening animatic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3Kiw2-v ... re=channel
I am now going to take on the persona of a space marine during that battle.
"Hey look at that, it's an eldar farseer that allowed us to get within shooting range without any oposition. Unusual but let's take advantage. HOLY CRAP THAT GUY GOT SHOT! This guy who is wearing exactly the same armour as me, but that is somehow more influential than me is telling me to take cover. I'll just stand on this side of this rock because somehow, despite the fact that my guard was down when that guy got shot, I know the direction from which the shots are coming. Probably because I assumed it was those guys moving through the tall grass, that I realized were there because of my incredible hearing capabilities that allow me to notice when someone is moving, and it's not my mates steps, but rather some grass moving, but that I decided to ignore. Yet there's something odd about them. They seem to be conciously wasting shots into the air, despite the fact that they know they wont hit anything. Hey! we're in close combat now! Not the wisest of moves against howling banshees, but let's fight anyway. Hey look! It's an eldar ranger shooting one of my mates on the shoulder plate for some reason. The strange thing is, he aimed for about two seconds when they usually take at least ten for the shot to be most effective. I also noticed that despite the fact that he was standing at about five meters from him, he used the scope, and took the shot before having found a good way to hide. OH! He got shot. Well I guess that's what usually happens to a ranger that uses the scope to shoot at a well defended piece of armour standing five meters away from you having only taken two seconds to aim and having taken no precautionary procedures for if he is seen. OH BUGGER! My mate with the heavy bolter got stabbed by a warp spider (who for some reason seems to be hunting alone rather than on the groups of 5 they usually go in)! Yet for some reason, after an effective kill, it is standing in a position well visible to any one who may want to shoot him. OH! He got shot as well. There's something odd about our bolters today. On the regular battle, the bullets explode on impact, yet today they seem to act as regular machine guns. Hm, strange. OH JESUS! Those two ladies got grabbed by that dreadnought! Now, I noticed that one of them got squished and then lobbed at a rock, but for some reason the dreadnought wasted a good amount of fuel in burning the other one, rather than doing the same he did to the first one. Well, we're almost there! Lets shoot at that farseer. GOD GOLLY! She used some psychic powers to take me to the ground in about three seconds! and after that she stopped but I can't get up! Yet this is perfectly understandable since my mind has been shattered by hers. But what is this!? The gentleman that seems to be no different than me except that he wears no helmet, has taken six seconds of the same as me but not only is still standing, his mind seems to be perfectly fine after that powerful blow! OW! He got her! But what's that!? A Lictor!? And not only a lictor! A retarded one too! Because it came out of camouflage before making the kill! And look! He even failed the shot. Well I've had enough batle for today, might as well just die and call it a day."

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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:13 am 
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ianuchu wrote:
Not to offend anyone out there, but in my opinion, Dawn of War II is laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame!

Let's look at some of the best things about Dawn of War (the first one). Complex base building, Specific units for specific roles, strategy levels allow for micro and macro, cool Eldar.
Now let's look at the same subjects in Down of War II. No base building, hardly any difference apart from tank hunter and not tank hunter, no strategy level, only allowing for macro, lame Eldar.

Basically, everything that was good in DOW 1 they have destroyed.

Complex base building? You mean base building that looked cooler but was otherwise unremarkable? Real complex base building can be found in games like Supreme commander, where certain buildings gain benefits from being next to each other, while also leaving them vulnerable to artillery, air strikes and nukes. What Relic did was revolutionary, being a radical step away from the standard formula, quickening the game to the fun parts, and giving it something to say over Star Craft II.

Specific units for specific roles? You mean spam spam spam until Relic nerfs the unit with a patch? Lets look at SM. Scouts, while cool, became useless once you got to 2nd/3rd teir because they were weaker marines and everyone had detector units, plus they had little damage output. They'd kill one or two guys, but they were so expendable and replaceable that it didn't matter. Tac squads are just weaker versions of Terminators. Assault termies sucked. Assault squads and whirlwinds were the only special role units in the army. Eldar were the only ones who had anything close to true specialization, and they still have aspect warriors. Really, you always upgraded to missiles, no matter what.

Micro and Macro? You want to see real skill based and interesting macro, go to SCII and SupCom. Those are two unique and near perfect economy systems, with the scale of SC allowing for crazy amounts of macro to win games. Micro? That's the name of the game in DowII, you need to be able to micro, and being close up and directing all of your units in their gory madness is what 40K is all about. How can you macro in a smaller scale game like DoWII? I can't see the issue here.

Finally, what's so bad about beautifully rendered Eldar? The Farseer to flat-chested for you?

ianuchu wrote:
And as if this was not enough, they portray the tyranids in all the wrong ways. First of all,
Image
[Open in new window]

Everybody please look carefully at the tails of the gaunts.
See them?
Well then you'll have realized; THESE ARE 'NIDS! NOT ALIENS!
That shot doesn't give me many clear looks at the tails, but I can't see anything wrong with the visible ones. Not sure what's the issue here, or why you're citing it as a reason the game is lame. The tail design should be a minor quible if anything.

ianuchu wrote:
second of all, let's look at the leaders:
Hive tyrant = Perfectly good
Lictor Alpha = WTF?
Ravener Alpha = Now you'r just being stupid...

Well, Relic needed to make at least 3 different HQ units that allowed the army to play differently, and as it stands, the Prime is a smaller Hive Tyrant without the psychic powers and the Terv already has the support role taken by the Hive Tyrant (+ the spawn Termagant would be a pain in the ass to make workable), so Relic had to invent new ones, which I frankly wish existed in our dex.

ianuchu wrote:
Next, let's think about what they said about the HVC
Quote:
Venom Cannons – which is a massive ranged anti-vehicle weapon that the Tyranids use.

If you ask me, I would not use a HVC against a tank. And according to the discussion in this thread viewtopic.php?f=36&t=14700, nobody would.
The VC has always been our big gun, it just happens to have shitty rules that don't reflect what it's supposed to do. Relic is just getting it right.

ianuchu wrote:
It is not only the Tyranids I dislike in this game, let's look at Orks.
Image
[Open in new window]

So what, is this a warboss? No, I don't think it is, I think it's an overgrown nob.
Ok, so what are the main things to look for when looking for an Ork warboss? Generally a body upgraded with cyborg stuff beyond reckoning.
Now look at the picture.
What do you see? A warboss with extreme cybernetics? No, I think it's an overgrown nob.
You seem to have forgotten the RPG elements. HQs and squad leaders no longer come out the door with full gear, you have to level them up as you go along, killing and such. This is just a newb as far as Warbosses go, so he's out to make a name for himself in his first big campaign. It's perfectly reasonable and fits the game. Also, look at the Warboss models. Aside from Gazzskull (sp?), they aren't covered in cybork bits. It's an optional upgrade in the Ork dex, not standard equipment.

ianuchu wrote:
Now the opening animatic
(Wall of text)

It's just an intro, whats more, you're pretty darn late to be moaning about all this. Where have you been the past year or so? The original intro makes about as much sense ("Hmm, the charging orks are suffering no casualties from our point blank range bolter fire! Here, me the big dread with my assault cannon, how about I shoot the ground in front of the hill instead of the orks! Lets charge, UPHILL against a DEDICATED CC UNIT, when we've got a nice defensive position, overwhelming firepower and tons of support on the way!"), but it's completely badass and crazy, and that's all that matters. You're just being picky.

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 Post subject: Re: "Dawn of War II: Retr=][=bution"
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:16 pm 
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Oh my gosh, I thought I was bitter and cantankerous. If I wanted the boring humdrum of base building and babysitting resources all the while juggling micro tasks, I would just play Starcraft 40 Billionz: Dawn of Zeratul. All your opinions made for a very entertaining read. Can't wait to play the guard campaign and zap some zerglings with the wrong tails. :D

On a more serious note Ianuchu, I think you are taking these design decisions waaaaay too seriously. As master Yoda once said in movie sequels we should be more outraged about... "Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to... suffering." So if you absolutely have to use your sith powers, champion a greater cause. A new Tyranid Codex!


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