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 Post subject: Walking Tyrants, Tervigons, Harpies and Trygons
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 1:37 pm 
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Little One
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Hey all,

looking to the Hive Mind for help on a few units that I haven't used and ones that I feel I'm not using effectively. My main opponents are Tau, Orks and Guard with the occasional smattering of Marines, so you might be able to help more easily.

Walking Tyrants
So I'm a big fan of running a walking Tyrant, classic with HVC and LW+BS, adding Guard to season. I never seem to really achieve anything with them though and the Guard seem to drop like flies, especially considering how expensive they are. Should I be keeping my Tyrant central and playing aggressively with them? Or using them as a flank denial? I often play in smaller point games, so I find this quite a weighty purchase, looking at 300+ points, but at the same time can't afford not to take the Guard.

Tervigons
I don't have a Tervigon, and I kinda do want one I must say, but at the same time, every time I pre-emptively roll the 3D6, I get a double first try. And I know a couple of other Nid players who have the same experience whent hey use thier Tervigons. Is that massive point-sink really worth it? And what's the best way to use them? Centralised unit I'm guessing? Or back-field objective holder?

Harpies
Never had or used one, but I love the idea of them, especially that scream attack. However, how do people use them? Obviously Skyblight formation is popular, so people clearly take Harpies. But are they ever intended to get into combat? Or just be used as a troop harasser?

Trygons
I love the big snakey beast, but I always find the subterranean tunnels are useless (it ends up the stuff comes in before or at the same time as the Trygon) and I don't really know what else they're good for. Should I be spending the points and getting a Prime instead for the tasty synapse, as well as opening up options for the bio-artefacts? I've heard tale of Trygon Primes with the Reaper doing well. A big investment, but worth it maybe? And should I be starting the Trygon on the board, using it to support other units?


Tactics wise, I feel like running 2 of something, eg. Tyrannofex; Haruspex etc. is more threatening to your opponent and gives them a tougher choice than say, taking a variety. For example, playing against Tau today, I took a Haruspex and a Tyrannofex, but I feel I would have been better served taking 2 Tyrannofex. Is that something anyone else has noticed? Or do people only run 1 of something in general?

Cheers
Iron Nid.


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 Post subject: Re: Walking Tyrants, Tervigons, Harpies and Trygons
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:30 am 
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Little One
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...


Last edited by PolishSwarm on Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Walking Tyrants, Tervigons, Harpies and Trygons
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:46 am 
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Little One
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Well, I'll start by saying that I asked for advice on how to use the stuff, not just to get told 'these units are crap don't use them blah blah.'

I am not, never have, and never will be a competitive player, so as much as I appreciate a competitive view point, getting told Flyrants Flyrants Flyrants every time is of little use.

As to walking tyrant with LW/BS/HVC as a classic, that's just how I always picture them and how they seem to be majoritally represented in fluff, art work etc. That's why I said classic, not because they are amazing in-game or whatever. My LW/BS walking Tyrant has his gun magnetised, so I can equip him with any of the gun options.

I'd also note that I don't take flyers against people who don't take flyers for the sake of fairness. My Crone and Flyrants do an absolute number on my Ork, Tau and Guard opponents and without flyers, they find them incredibly hard to remove. I'll reiterate, I play for fun and for my opponent to have fun, so putting them up against something like that, I just don't appreciate.

I enjoy my Haruspex. Is he great? No. Has he had his moments? Yes. I love the model, the fluff and just yeah, getting those fun in-game moments. I don't expect him to do a lot, but when he does, it's great.

So I appreciate your input, but it's hard to take anything away from it when you've basically just said 'don't use any of the units.' I imagine that would mean that 3/4 of our codex, if not more, you just wouldn't touch. I understand why people like competitive play, I just don't and noone I have games against, bar one Eldar player, plays in such a way. I get a lot of fun out of using different units or combinations that I haven't tried before.

Iron Nid


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 Post subject: Re: Walking Tyrants, Tervigons, Harpies and Trygons
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:33 pm 
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Biotitan
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In the spirit of your request I will answer as best I can.

Iron Nid wrote:
...Looking to the Hive Mind for help on a few units that I haven't used and ones that I feel I'm not using effectively. My main opponents are Tau, Orks and Guard with the occasional smattering of Marines, so you might be able to help more easily.

I'm unaware what type of Orks or AM you typically face (horde or mech), so my suggestions will aim to address either circumstance. Tau are, well, Tau.

Quote:
Walking Tyrants
So I'm a big fan of running a walking Tyrant, classic with HVC and LW+BS, adding Guard to season. I never seem to really achieve anything with them though and the Guard seem to drop like flies, especially considering how expensive they are. Should I be keeping my Tyrant central and playing aggressively with them? Or using them as a flank denial? I often play in smaller point games, so I find this quite a weighty purchase, looking at 300+ points, but at the same time can't afford not to take the Guard.

I, too, am a big fan of walking Tyrants, but I like to dedicate to a more CC oriented configuration. Fully loading with three Tyrant Guard is ideal and having all models with Adrenal Glands improves their mobility. I like to arm with two CC weapons and run in order to maximize the opportunity to close with the enemy, but if you like to run the HVC option you can save the points on AG, keep the Tyrant Guard bare bones (Rending Claws only) and operate the unit at the middle range of the board. A Venomthrope Brood is good against the Orks, but that won't be of too much assistance against Tau or AM with all the Ignores Cover available to them; you could still have the Venomthropes nearby to force the Tau player to sacrifice two Markerlights on Ignores Cover instead of improved BS. One good thing you have working for you is your primary opponents are mostly Ld challenged. Equipping with The Horror would be a strong choice and provide further incentive to engage into CC.

Do you have a Tyrannocyte? For an interesting experiment I have been putting my Swarmlord in one. You could do the same with the HVC Tyrant and take advantage of the built-in LoS interfering "terrain" afforded by the Tyrannocyte to make the opponent want to get rid of it for clear shots on your Tyrant. Meanwhile, you can place the Tyrant on the board where you think it'll be of the greatest advantage. Choosing this Tyrant as your Warlord is a risky proposition, though, so if you do so you'll want to be extremely cognizant of where you DS it into play in order to preserve its longevity and avoid giving up a quick KP and/or Slay the Warlord.

Quote:
Tervigons
I don't have a Tervigon, and I kinda do want one I must say, but at the same time, every time I pre-emptively roll the 3D6, I get a double first try. And I know a couple of other Nid players who have the same experience whent hey use thier Tervigons. Is that massive point-sink really worth it? And what's the best way to use them? Centralised unit I'm guessing? Or back-field objective holder?

I actually like Tervigons. They're an ideal backfield minder and have a great psychological impact on the decisions the opponent makes, but if you intend to use it as such you should have a solid CC component to your list in order to preserve it longer. Your opponent will be too busy worrying about the closing units to pay it much mind.

Your question about spawning is valid, but I have found that I only spawn when I need to. Hold off on spawning until an enemy unit gets too close, then spawn to cut off access to your Tervigon by closing units. You can also spawn should you need to capture a nearby objective rather than move your Tervigon there to claim it but risk putting the model out in the open. The bonus Warp Charge is also nice. The biggest bonus, though, is you have a solid Synapse Creature that's not easy to kill, has the ability to expand its Synapse range +6" if you need it and enables you to comfortably lob Spore Mines from Biovores and fire Exocrines behind cover without having to dedicate beefier CC oriented units to do so. Between getting bumrushed by vanguard units and bombed from afar by your heavy weapons fire from behind, the choices your opponent makes on target prioritization should always leave you one or more units to do their thing unmolested.

Fielding as a Troop choice is something you want to do if you're theme supports it. You could choose to run the Hive Fleet Detachment to get that extra third HQ slot, but you'll also need a mandatory third Troop choice, so I don't know if your play style fits that concept or not. But there are options available to you in that regard.

Quote:
Harpies
Never had or used one, but I love the idea of them, especially that scream attack. However, how do people use them? Obviously Skyblight formation is popular, so people clearly take Harpies. But are they ever intended to get into combat? Or just be used as a troop harasser?

I like the idea of them, too, but like you I don't currently field them. The Crone is too solid. Apologies, but not much I can offer on this.

Quote:
Trygons
I love the big snakey beast, but I always find the subterranean tunnels are useless (it ends up the stuff comes in before or at the same time as the Trygon) and I don't really know what else they're good for. Should I be spending the points and getting a Prime instead for the tasty synapse, as well as opening up options for the bio-artefacts? I've heard tale of Trygon Primes with the Reaper doing well. A big investment, but worth it maybe? And should I be starting the Trygon on the board, using it to support other units?

I agree, the Tunnel is useless. I usually spend the points for a Prime, instead. Doubled rate of fire is great, Synapse is better, but the best available option for it is the ability to buy The Reaper of Obliterax for it. Having a MC of that caliber capable of dishing out 8 CC attacks on the charge at S7 (S8 if you buy up Adrenal Glands for Furious Charge or Ymgarl Factor, S9 if you get both) is tremendously potent. Your typical competition won't normally field big mechs, but having that S8 against Orks is nice for Instant Death capability against Nobs and the like. Needing only a 2 on the Armor Pen roll instead of a 4 vs rear AV10 is also nice. A bit pricey but I find it worth it.

Deploying this unit is trickier. If you go for a Trygon, deploy it right in the opponent's face while the rest of your units are advancing. Positioning it where fire lanes exist to block them is ideal, especially if the model is between you and the advancing Tyrant + Guard. Psychic abilities from the Tyrant to give the Trygon FNP will certainly help it survive. Lictors to pinpoint arrival just where you want it also works but does require you to plan ahead as you position those Lictors so you can make the most of it. It might seem like an expensive unit to throw away, but the end goal is the win. Tyranids eat everything, anyway, so aiming to get the primary goal of victory is what you think about.

The Trygon Prime is something you'll probably want to be more careful about positioning, especially if you loaded it up with the RoO and/or AG and/or Ymgarl Factor. DS it behind nearby cover and force the opponent to worry about it. On a vulnerable flank is best. You do leave your other vanguard units susceptible.

If you have the models for it, consider running the Subterranean Swarm. Expensive but excellent for pucker factor. Having a Trygon Prime, Trygon, Mawloc and three units of Raveners appear out of nowhere all at once is quite fun. The Tau could probably handle it okay, but you want to have the rest of your army applying constant pressure. Vanguard units running up to engage in close combat make it difficult to keep everything back. Long range options like Biovores and Exocrines have the opportunity to reduce numbers in wide swaths against hordes and/or Pin units to make them less effective.


Quote:
Tactics wise, I feel like running 2 of something, eg. Tyrannofex; Haruspex etc. is more threatening to your opponent and gives them a tougher choice than say, taking a variety. For example, playing against Tau today, I took a Haruspex and a Tyrannofex, but I feel I would have been better served taking 2 Tyrannofex. Is that something anyone else has noticed? Or do people only run 1 of something in general?

I rarely run two of anything except Tyrannocytes. To me, I like playing variety but the doubling up of unit functions is important. Having a Tyrannofex and a unit of Biovores doubles up long range firing. Having a Haruspex and Trygon Prime doubles up CC oriented MCs. But the true power of Tyranids comes in the synergy of your army as a whole. Think of your force as a massive amoeba. What would help your amoeba eat your opponent the most effectively? What parts of your blob could you sacrifice to achieve your goal? Considering it in those terms makes the details of your army's composition meaningless. You could double up units to serve a function, but having two different units whose functions overlap also works.


Don't know if this helps, but there you go!

Cheers
Iron Nid.[/quote]


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 Post subject: Re: Walking Tyrants, Tervigons, Harpies and Trygons
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:20 pm 
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Great Devourer
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Iron Nid wrote:
...
looking to the Hive Mind for help on a few units that I haven't used and ones that I feel I'm not using effectively. My main opponents are Tau, Orks and Guard with the occasional smattering of Marines, so you might be able to help more easily..l
Hi Iron Nid,
I've been pretty conservative with my Tyranids so far in 7th, so I've only got enough in game experience for one of the lovely bugs you're asking about.

Iron Nid wrote:
Tervigons
I don't have a Tervigon, and I kinda do want one I must say, but at the same time, every time I pre-emptively roll the 3D6, I get a double first try. And I know a couple of other Nid players who have the same experience whent hey use thier Tervigons. Is that massive point-sink really worth it? And what's the best way to use them? Centralised unit I'm guessing? Or back-field objective holder?
I'm not finding her worth it. :( I'm happy to buy the 30 termagants to make her a troops choice, usually 20 devourers and 10 spine fists. In the kind of games you and I play they do well against all opponents, and the destruction they wreak on Astra Militarum and orks are dramatic. :D

But it is really tempting to use a tervigon as ttheir synapse support as both work well in the midfield with 18" firepower. In this day and age the fastest way to remove those 30 termagants is to kill the tervigon and watch the little ones explode. I just can't reliably keep a tervigon alive for even half a game. And I find her too expensive for a one turn heavy weapons magnet. So as much as I love the model, I've retired mine for now.

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 Post subject: Re: Walking Tyrants, Tervigons, Harpies and Trygons
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:00 pm 
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Big One
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All the nid big beasts lack one key thing, an invulnerable save. You need to rely on cover, take malanthropes to support the big bugs or a few venomthropes. If you can hide them out of LOS on turn 1, it means you will get some covers saves on turn 1, then you pop out on turn 2 and it might take an army an entire turn to kill 2-3 venomtropes or 1 malanthrope if you can keep them in a ruin. You can screen your big guys with a wall of gaunts that daisy chain all the way back to the malanthrope so that the gaunts get a 5+ in the open and the big guys behind get a 3+ if you can't find cover on the way. Try to roll the night fighting warlord trait. Yes some armies ignore cover but most won't have too many units of it. If you don't like flyrants, try biovores to take out Tau pathfinders and bye bye marker lights.

Based on the cover strategy all the bugs you suggested would function the same, hug cover (its more important to be in cover then come out and try a risky charge) only get out of cover when you are sure you are going to do some damage.

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 Post subject: Re: Walking Tyrants, Tervigons, Harpies and Trygons
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:29 pm 
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Little One
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Thank you xsquidz, Yaleling and particularly Tropic Thunder! Loads of insightful advice there. I'll go through and answer your questions where I can.

Quote:
I'm unaware what type of Orks or AM you typically face (horde or mech), so my suggestions will aim to address either circumstance. Tau are, well, Tau.


The Ork player I face has just about everything, short of Stompas and Gorkanauts/Morkanauts. He often fields Trukk and Wagon mobs, so loads of Boyz and loads of vehicles, backed up by a big mob of Bikerz led by a Boss. Dakka jets are often a feature and he can bring a large Dred mob too. He's a tough one to prepare for, but a wonderful friendly and fair opponent who likes doing as I do and trying out new, less 'competitive' builds and units.

The Guard player I face is very infantry heavy, utilising the Aegis Defence Line (with comms array) and Valkyries and Vendettas, sometimes backed up by a couple of heavy tanks.

The Tau players have small forces, using majoritally infantry, battlesuits of varying size and light vehicles such as Piranhas.

Quote:
If you don't like flyrants, try biovores to take out Tau pathfinders and bye bye marker lights.


I don't 'dislike' them as such, I'm just not a fan of the ol' dakkaflyrant. Personally if I run one of my Flyrants, it's the one I've converted with the Maw Claws, Miasma Cannon and Shreddershard Beetles. Saying that, I've got some biovore conversions I've been working on, so I really need to get them into action against my opponents. AP4 is great against the majority of them!

Quote:
I like to dedicate to a more CC oriented configuration. Fully loading with three Tyrant Guard is ideal and having all models with Adrenal Glands improves their mobility. I like to arm with two CC weapons and run in order to maximize the opportunity to close with the enemy, but if you like to run the HVC option you can save the points on AG, keep the Tyrant Guard bare bones (Rending Claws only) and operate the unit at the middle range of the board.


I plan on getting another Tyrant at some point so I can fully magnetise a ground varient (might do the wings too) so I can run an all CC Tyrant. I do have a FW one with dual scythes which I might take for a spin tomorrow. Yup, I do take my Tyrant Guard bare bones but find in small points games (1000points etc), I struggle to fit in 3.

Quote:
Do you have a Tyrannocyte?


I do! though it's lying in disrepair as I have been working on a conversion on it and it's fallen by the way side for being such a horrible kit to construct! But yes, I very much see your point and I like the idea of dropping things in, especially stuff like my acid spray Tyrannofex.

Tervigons
You've got me very excited over using them now actually, I feel the need to go out and get one to try it as a back-field presence. I always forget that spawning is optional! That's where I seem to misplace my disappointment.

Harpies
I shall need to get a couple to use them so I can see how they pan out, I imagine they'd be beautifully effective against my regular opponents actually, and they're not super expensive points wise either! HVCs for everyone! I love my Crone too, she's enjoyed hugging many a dakkajet to death and melting many orks/guard with that acid gob.

Trygons
That subterranean swarm notion sounds great, I remember writing a list a while back called 'As Above, So Below' and involved using the subterranean swarm and skyblight swarm together. I need a couple more models to field it, but I'm sure I could manage it! I'll definitely be trying out the Reaper Prime at some point, got some cool conversion plans for him.

Incredibly helpful stuff guys, can't thank you enough and you've got me fair excited for using all those units! If only I hadn't asked for Dark Eldar Haemonculus stuff for my Christmas!

Cheers,
Iron Nid.


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