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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:34 am 
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@entomologist: Wow. Simply wow. Leave it to a scientist to produce such an awesome addition to our little theory here. And the best part of it is, it makes perfect sense and is logical enough that it even seems plausible for a species like the tyranids to exist somewhere... :twisted: . I like your ideas FAR more than the "biological accident" and the "infected by ancient races" theories. thanks for sharing!

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:51 pm 
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the Warhammer fantasy world (commonly know as the warhammer world, how original), looks a lot like earth, but isn't.

As for the Zerg, they were not created by humans, but by some old race that created both the Zerg and the Protoss.

as for Entomologist's post... wow... 'nuff said!

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 6:57 pm 
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vonny wrote:
As for the Zerg, they were not created by humans, but by some old race that created both the Zerg and the Protoss.


Ye speak of the Xel'naga. Just to clarify. 8-)

vonny wrote:
as for Entomologist's post... wow... 'nuff said!


Indeed. I think I've cleared up my college choices based on his post, even. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:06 pm 
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Rin'mimyasz, you're my hero. (as are a lot of people who can come up with shady fluff facts noone else remembers when I'm trying to remember them, which, by the way, doesn't happen all that often)

I should've known, from the Xel'naga temple. I based my home-made single player campaign's grand finale around that one, although I never finished the stuff... ages ago. Not half as good in fluff-remebrance as I am now.

*rants on a bit more but spares your brain from the terror of actually reading it*

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:06 pm 
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vonny wrote:
Rin'mimyasz, you're my hero.


Heh, guess I'll hafta buff up my suit of armour again. :lol:

Starcraft is one of my all-time favourite games, even if I'm not very good at it anymore. The Zerg and their backstory are just plain stompin' cool. :D

@entomologist: By spiracles, you mean the "chimneys" on larger Tyranids' backs, yes? If so, I'd hafta say it's interesting how the lesser creatures (Gaunts, Rippers, et cetera) don't have them...

Hmmm... while posting about both the Zerg and Tyranid background, I have to wonder: might the Tyranids have a massive 'overmind' as well, a repository for all their knowledge and genetic structures? And if so, would it be like a gargantuan hive craft, or even a flock of hyper-sentient ships?

Maybe not quite as similar, since in the case of the Zerg, the Overmind technically is a seperate whole from the Zerg race, whatwith being custom-made by the Xel-naga and all.

Just my rantings and rhetorical questions... 8-)

As for doing SC campaigns... yeah, I've been there. Numerous times. Never finished any of 'em. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:59 pm 
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Hey, thanks Neutrophile, vonny, Rin'mimyasz... glad y'all like. :)

Rin'mimyasz, by way of clarification on the spiracles... I speak of the holes on the sides of the heads and on the sides of the base of the tails. :) Something kinda similar happens with certain athletic insects. A flying locust will open the front spiracles on its thorax as it takes air into its body (uses a combination of abdominal muscles and internal air sacs to drive this process). Then it will close the front spiracles and open the back ones along its abdomen as it expels the air. This process keeps the air inside its tracheal system a bit fresher. Perfectly reasonable for 'nids to breathe in at the sides of the head and out at the base of the tail. As a side bonus, such a system allows the critter to breathe comfortably even while its jaws are buried deep in the body cavity of some hapless prey... :twisted:

As far as I have heard and can guess, the back chimneys are some kinda heat-radiating structures for the larger beasts. However, I could definitely see them as being sort of organic turbochargers for the respiratory system... an enhancement to ventilation, allowing better delivery of oxygen (or whatever gas the beast prefers to use for its metabolism). Always a good thing for a larger, more powerful monstrosity. :D

Anyways... thanks again my fellow theorists. Here's to explaining our favorite monsters (also, though I haven't had much chance at Starcraft, from all I've seen, the Zerg totally rock!).

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:34 am 
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Wow entomologist that is a really good theory and i think thats the one i will believe.

I also kinda like the whole old one theory, but dont like the old ones. I like the Xel'naga. Which is kinda cool if you think of the links between Starcraft and 40k. (wasnt starcraft supposed to be a 40k game but the deal fell through or something)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:02 pm 
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Entomologist wrote:

As far as I have heard and can guess, the back chimneys are some kinda heat-radiating structures for the larger beasts. However, I could definitely see them as being sort of organic turbochargers for the respiratory system... an enhancement to ventilation, allowing better delivery of oxygen (or whatever gas the beast prefers to use for its metabolism). Always a good thing for a larger, more powerful monstrosity. :D


Heat vents are what those are supposed to be, which makes a lot of sense. Compared to large terretrial animals like Dinosaurs, a Carnifex would have a hell of a time getting rid of body heat, considering its high metabolism and layers of armor over its body. There's a reason large dinosaurs were slow, spent a lot of time in the water, and had plates like Stegasaurus =] I'd say that it all makes perfect sense evolutionarily.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:55 pm 
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OK, this is all REALY COOL, even I have some ideas here they are:

Number 1: The Hive mind, IS real, but the reason Humans can't find it is beacause it's in the one place we can't go.

The Warp.

I mean, The warp is the home of Him-on-earth knows what, and Tyranids, or at lest i think, it right in. Why can't it be there. The Tyranids only came after the Eldar ripped open the Chaos Eye.

Number 2:
The Chaos are in on it. The Eye is the home of the Chaos, if a huge fleet of Bioships poped out, A chapter of Chaos is ripped apart trying to fight it, what reason would they have to tell everyone else??? The panic that spred could only help the Chapters of Chaos. And how many 'wars' have the Chaos launched on the Fleets??

Number 3:
The Necrons stay away from the Fleets, and like wise. Why? Cause theres no point in the two fighting. The Necrons have a limited number of troops, and not much Biomasss can be gained from metal bodys. Why fight? Its just a waist of time.
====

Does any of this make sence to all out there?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:59 pm 
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Spike wrote:
yes , ants are the only other creatures beside humans that actually wage way with themselves (inter-colony).


That's not entirely true...

There are a number of animal species that are being found to wage "war" on one another, Lions and Hyenas being a prime example...

In some parts of Kenya, certain Hyena packs will intentionally search out cubs from specific prides, just to kill them...Likewise, Lions of these prides will kill every single Hyena they can get their claws on...So "war" amongst nature isn't quite as rare as some might think, but admittedly it does occur in the insect world more then any other (hornets vs bees, ants vs termites, ect. ect.)...

Personally, I believe the Tyranids did in fact evolve naturally on their world...

I believe that, like earth, a varied collection of species probably evolved on their world, but somewhere along their evolutionary progression "something" quickened up the speed of a specific species development (we'll refer to them as proto-tyranids)...

This "something" could very well be explained sufficently via a bacterial symbosis, with the bacterium that the proto-tyranids developed over their evolution progressing to such a state that it began to not only digest, but assimulate genetic information as well as nutrient...

This is actually being looked into now, as having occurred in humans, although of a very different type - Case in point being the sudden maturity levels of young females from what it was 25-30yrs ago, brought on (so it's hypothesised) by the ingestian and assimulation of hormonal aids we've put into our food stock...

In much the same way, I believe the proto-tyranids might have, slowly, over millenia, assimulated various traits from their own food sources and, over time, developed an intelligence (one which we, as humans, could never understand, as the basis for such would be completely impossible to fathom)...Such proto-tyranid types may have began to take shape, yet very different, basic designs, based on their diet and that which they were assimulating from such...

Eventually, such a race as these proto-tyranids would have found themselves exhausting their food sourse, as due to their nature, the only thing left upon their homeworld would be atleast somewhat genetically related...

On the subject of what Tyranids may have evolved from initially, if one looks at the way Tyranids look, there are a number of simularities that could be commented on in their relation to animals that evolved on our own world...

First and foremost, as we all tend to refer to them as "bugs" - Insectoid...

Secondly - Reptilian (one that GW has brought up in the past by reffering to them as "space dinosaurs")...

Thirdly - Fish (some may not understand this one right off the bat, so allow me to explain)...Ostracoderms were the earth's first fish species, and made up a myriad of different types and species...Tyranids, if one thinks about it, hold alot of simularities to Placoderms especially (the earliest jawed fishes)...How so?...A number of Tyranids have "gills" on the side of the heads (some on the base of their tails as well)...Like the Placoderms, they have large bony plates on their heads, neck and backs, and also like many species of them, have 6 appendages...Using this info for a hypothesis, it's quite possible that a species much like the Placoderms evolved to leave the water on the Tyranid homeworld, making use of all 6 of it's appendages, where our own primordeal ancestors only made use of 4, hence the 6 appendages we see today (or, I should say, roughly 38.000 yrs in the future)... :)
Finding that the large bony plates work well for defense, the proto-tyranid ancestor may have kept these traits and expanded upon them...

Of course, this is only my own personal theory as to how the proto-tyranids may have first began...I actually have a much large, well thought out taxonomy based on how I believe Tyranids may have evolved, but I've never got around to finishing it... I, personally, like the idea of the Tyranids being something that nature, in all her horrific and ill intended glory, devised on some far off world to see just how far she could push the blueprints of her own creation...

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:06 pm 
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Quote:
There's a reason large dinosaurs were slow, spent a lot of time in the water, and had plates like Stegasaurus =] I'd say that it all makes perfect sense evolutionarily.


Actually, as it's known now, almost none of the large terrestrial dinosaurs ever spent a lot of time in water, as it's now been realized that the water pressure, combined with the muscle and flesh weight -and- the circulatory system would've made bathing in anything higher then stomach water, pretty deadly for em...Also, they are now not believed to be so slow as they once were...It's been estimated that saurapods (based off trackways that have been found that seemed to suggest they were being chased by large carnosaurs when the trackways were made) could easily out run humans, atleast for short distances...

Plus, much like large bull elephants, it'd be far too dangerous to risk getting in high water when the prospect of one's own weight lodging them in deep mud was a very real danger for animals their size...

Sorry, not trying to come across an ass, I'm just a big dino nut on top of being a Nid fan... :)

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Last edited by hivefleet providence on Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:24 pm 
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hivefleet providence wrote:
Entomologist wrote:

There's a reason large dinosaurs were slow, spent a lot of time in the water, and had plates like Stegasaurus =] I'd say that it all makes perfect sense evolutionarily.





Okay...

I don't know what kind of technological signals got crossed here, but please don't attribute that statement to me in a quote, okay? I'm well aware of the current paleontological theories, thank you. (I even recognize the Anomalocaris in your avatar) :evil: I just didn't see any point in bringing up another person's error in this thread. We're talking about Tyranids, not dinosaurs.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:36 am 
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Was a simple mistake from where I was quoting anothers post (which has thereby been rectified)...

Don't get so worked up over it...

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranids... what are we?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:12 pm 
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If you ask me we are a force of nature pure and simple. I think of the Hive mind in a similar fashion to the aliens in Orsen Scott Card's Novel Enders Game(a mustMread for nid players). Even though the Formics (the name of the stories xenos) are made out as a more tragic antagonist they have a Hive Mind which binds all of there species together. In it you can imagine this massive guiding force that is really just the collective thoughts, ideas, plans, personalities, and desires of every member of their race that has ever existed. I feel this is a good base for the concept of the nid's Hive Mind, just turn it from a kind race to one that's decidedly evil (or chaotic neutral depending on your view) and your almost there. A bit of bio-deversity in the race and you have Tyranids.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranids... what are we?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:54 pm 
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*** Edit *** Jan 30, 2011 ***Mostly cleaning up the bulk of the theory. Just a couple sentences added here and there. More added to my thoughts on the Hive Mind in the last paragraph. *** Please Enjoy!

Recently, before I read this post, I was coming up with my own theories as well (as I am sure all nid players have). Im not so sure that the Tyranids were capable of evolving on a single planet. A lot of nature seems to take a lot of time for creatures to evolve. In that time nature will usually find a balance to it. Ofcourse, it was mentioned in a much earlier post about an "event" or "trigger" that got the evolution of a particular species ramped up higher than nature intended or could "balance."

The theory I have been becoming ever more fond of is an idea similar to that "trigger-effect" but caused by a virus of an explorer team in another galaxy. A team lands on a life bearing planet (be this the races first planet they landed on or just another routine investigation in a young space dwelling empire). This virus, relatively harmless to the carrier race through vaccinations or their immune systems, just wreaks havoc across this new world.

The RNA binds with the hosts DNA/RNA in random cells for reproduction then releases violently inside species that have never encountered it before. The combination of this particular virus' reproduction and the chances of genetic variations from the host species alters the virus into several variations as it is dispersed in the planets population. A viral parasite is born, perhaps, that is capable of compelling (not controlling) its host. Attacking or fusing with the hosts neurons inside the brain or equivalent and even onto nerve endings. The parasites in the brain begin bridging gaps or destroying bridges and acting as a transmitter themselves, begin driving the host insane or killing it (the later most likely). The parasite becomes the leading cause of death amongst the fauna of this region, but to those that survived are changed/compelled by the virus to just feed. As the parasite has destroyed all but the primitive parts of the brain: to feed, protect, reproduce etc.

The now single celled parasite spreads to insect equivalent species, perhaps one that uses a type of weak psychic link that was once necessary for those insects to survive. Now with the parasite latching onto the nerves or specialized cells that allow the link to be possible further changes the the parasite (whom still breeds like that of a virus), through genetic variation, into a collection of cells that possess a link to other similar cells of this strand. Through the insects network, compels them to gather nearer each other, unknowingly to the insects, to force the spreading of this new super virus.

In time this region, be it a continent or island or some other form or land that is naturally secluded is now being over run and beginning to see the signs of stabilizing. The "Collective-Virus" has become the dominant virus as it is now stable enough in the insects. As their brain or equivalent is already "primitive" they suffer little physical damage from the virus. Also the survivability of the insects working as a collective is far greater than the self destructive versions of the other divergent viruses in the larger creatures that are hunted/attacked or just not capable of hosting the virus that ends up killing it before too long. The virus is passed through to a couple of generations of the insects. Imagine that as the insect develops, its brain or equivalent is hindered/fed upon as the virus takes its usual place. These new generation insects, though still linked with their brethren, have only ever really felt the compulsion of the virus. These generations have become far more aggressive in the defense of its territories killing off other competing insects or smaller animals and also attacks larger organisms to feed a hive that is quickly breeding and dominating. The "Collective-Virus" has allowed the insects to hunt with far more effectiveness because of both the aggression and synchronicity available to these newer generation insects.

The natural barriers are no longer capable of holding back the spreading swarms as they spill over into other territories. Perhaps then this virus runs into a new type of creature. One similar to the krootox of our galaxy in the respects that it can intentionally choose the path of its evolution by modifying themselves using prey animals to help them down this path. Though the "Collective-Virus" is not as deadly as its other divergences, it still infects and spreads with frightening speed, while leaving the bulk of the natural order of things vaguely intact. Though it has spread to other and new creatures, none have really changed the virus until this Krootox like species. Though the "Collective-Link" is still present nearly all those infected are still capable of operating independently with the exception of those whom evolved a similar link naturally as the insects did. The Krootox like creatures were still just that, creatures. Maybe they used primitive tools maybe not? Later generations were hindered and affected much the same way as the insect hives were that allowed them to become so dominant. The later generations also felt the compulsion of the "Collective-Virus" but as there was larger brain or equivalent capacity the collective effect was now able to be felt amongst these later generations further increasing the compelling nature of the virus.

This is the part of the story where the "Collective-Virus" in combination of the shaping abilities of the new creature began to actually blur the virus out and actually create a creature whom "naturally" has a psychic link and the ability to change its progeny form through consumed prey and still maintain the "Collective-Link" effect. From here as the race that originally brought the virus returns to the planet, these new creatures overwhelm and consume as many as possible. The ship(s) that brought the settlers begin to flee but like genestealers of now do, some creatures got aboard and actually spread to other planets creating more or less the first Tyranid attacks against other worlds. In some planets it was successful that the creatures actually were capable of over running its dominant inhabitants others not so much. The collective link, or now early brood telepathy, keeping these creatures working and hunting in concert, soon taking their genetic divergences capable of better hunting their new prey.

The Tyranids were not more than a menace floating around on space hulks. Certain collectives had experienced situations in which survivors attempted to "space" Tyranids. With their links, those who were not spaced were capable of conceiving ideas to resist the cold hard vacuum of space (but could not be immune). The idea of space travel was still nothing that crossed the "minds" of these early Tyranids. In space however strange things can happen. Strange creatures can evolve and prosper, in our galaxy there is the C'Tan, star vampires. Beings composed of energy who actually feed off stars energies and were later "trapped"/"summoned" into Necrodermis bodies. There were creatures, few in number most likely, whom were born in space. A space hulk may have hit or even been attacked by one. The early Tyranids either in defense or just looking for a way to board this new space hulk and spread, lashed out against it. It was during this attack that space travel to the Tyranids was opened up to them. Before the Tyranids died in the vacuum of space new eggs were laid with yet another leap of Tyranid evolution. The new genetic material allowed for the Tyranid to be far more resistant to the void than any previous Tyranid before it. The new Tyranids consumed the beast from within but only a handful of new Tyranids were produced. Their size however was greater than the others - maybe the size of a car. The first Tyranid ships were born and also the true meaning of hunger. The manipulation of its later generations were having fewer and fewer limitations as it no longer required a particular prey, just the right components. These new ships slowly ferried Tyranids across space engaging in space board actions and even running across another of the space beasts or 2. The later generation Hive ships were becoming larger in size. Now, with this small hive fleet, were Tyranids actually evolving multiple types of creatures to better deal with boarding actions. This large collective link didn't house "memories" ...but experiences. Only in time did this Hive Fleet begin to create a "Synaptic Web" to better store and share experiences and to allow a mass, almost communication with one another very much like the those first insects. Going beyond a brood telepathy but creating the Hive Mind. Experience taught the Hive Mind to drop creatures onto a planet and keep a strong enough link with the creatures below so that they would return with food and nutrients. It was no longer just animals that was hunted as prey but plants as well. With enough of genetic material on boards these ships they found creatures capable of absorbing nutrients out of the very air. Even atmospheres were no longer safe.

....thats my thoughts, and this is just following a select path of evolution. At each divergence it created a new species who would not be capable of recognizing the others who had similar collective effect. It was always more of a Brood Telepathy than the all encompassing Hive Mind. As the first true rudimentary hive fleet began to consume the galaxy, previous and other divergences were consumed as well. There was no "Oh hey what's up long lost cousin" any and all that did not spawn from the Hive Fleet was consumed as though it was prey. And of course through experience the Hive Mind only ever became stronger, being capable of what it is currently. Do the Tyrants and Norn Queens etc possess intelligence? Sure! But I think of it as they just possess and retain a far greater amount of experience from the Synapse web allowing them to make better decisions on the battlefield when fighting/hunting prey as it collects experience from the rest of the army and can relay back instructions in real time. Though hive fleets seem to posses a communication that spans the galaxy or even greater. I think its the hive just sensing itself, if a part of the Hive begins to grow/proliferate then more fleets are attracted to the area. If it senses the hive diminishing maybe they will tend to stray away. Scouting will help determine such areas without sacrificing a whole fleet. As Hive Fleets get closer to each other I believe that all the collected experiences can be shared amongst themselves, perhaps new creatures bred in each fleet to contain and keep the new experiences. This is why I think the lictors and genestealers are vital as a hive fleet draws closer. It would collect from them their experiences and spawn or use creatures appropriate to the encountered prey. Who knows what that effective range is. This would allow nearly all hive fleets to develop uniquely in their area of the galaxy and as they come in range of another fleet, either entering another fleets "hunting grounds" or visa verse, the sharing of experiences will better prepare each fleet for that particular area they are in. :)

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Last edited by Tyrant385 on Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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