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 Post subject: Conventional Wisdom for Lists in 5th Ed.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:49 am 
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Here are some general guidelines to make and use an army list in 5th Edition: What units to take, what units are weaker choices (and why).

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Last edited by Accommodator on Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:11 am 
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TYRANID DATABASE


After tons of questions and threads about tyranids lists in the 5th edition I asked Accommodator to give us a sticky Thread where we will collect some usefull things like explanations on biomorphs etc.

The idea came up when whitetheeth contacted me and told me what I was thinking for a longer time now: We have so many discussions about tyranid lists (cheesy or not) and we are discussing the same questions over and over again. So we will add the main ideas here in the near future.


Tyranids Overal View:


Well Tyranids overall are a very solid race. It is not called one of the strongest races right now for nothing. Against the opinion of some people that every codex is in the same way good and bad it is a fact that GW produces stronger or weaker codicies just because the older ones are not updates ( look at imperial army)

It seems that tyranids got lucky on one of the stronger codicies. Not as good as the ultimate orc codex but we are good after all :wink:

TYRANID PRO:


So what are we best in? I think the true power of a tyranid army lies in their ability to anihilate infantry or even good-armour-save models like terminators etc.
With our templates, genestealer rending attacks, AP 3 Zoantrophes, Devourer Monster we can easily kill huge amounts of infantry.
I think this is the reason why we can be less afraid of orcs then the other races. With a good strategy we can deal with orcs.
We cause so many wounds that some will go thew the armour. We dont have good AP (except Trophes) but we dont need it.
12 Shots from a devourer tyrant with AP - will kill more terminators then 1 melta shot.
Another point I want to make is that we have one of the best troop choices ever. We have the numberless gaunts - in the 5. edition this is a present!
We can have a 8 man strong gaunt brood which could be destroyes and still keep an objective close to our table edge.
Also genestealer are that good it wouldnt be unfair if they were elite. But they arent :D We will discuss this under the genestealer section later.


TYRANID MINUS:

We have a problem with tanks! This is what we have to face since the cuent edition. A Landraider was a problem in the 4th edition but how it is truely a fortress. The Monolith is a thorn in our flesh,too but he can only move 6 inches to we can hit him in CC a Landraider which moves 12 inches can only be hit on a 6.
And with our weakened genestealer rending we have one weapons less to deal with these tanks. For now we have to face that we have a problem against tanks -we will discuss this later.
Another point is our best friend and our worst enemy: synapse.
While it is pretty nice to be fearless in many situations it totaly sucks for us in CC. Large Gaunt broods are a thing of the past cause they die in combat resolution faster as you can see.

TYRANID UNITS:


HQ:

Tyrants:

Tyrants are our best units- They're our comanders and can be very effective in everything. We have 2 solutions what we can do with him.
Going for Close Combat what was the best choice in the last edition cause you could attack one unit and go for the next one with sweeping advance.


CC TYRANT (Close Combat):

Sadly these times are over now. Without sweeping advance the tyrant will kill 1 unit and gets shot to death afterwards so a clean CC Tyrant isnt worth its points anymore.
If you still want to field him ( fluff reason or whatever) I suggest to play him this way:

Tyrant with Both Adrenal Glands, Toxin, Wings, Implant Attack, 2 x Talons, warpfield

DEVIL TYRANT: ( Shooting)
But what was spawned in the 4th edition is even better now: The Devil tyrant or Dakka-Dakka tyrant. He is equipped with 2 sets of twin linked devourers and shoots 12 shots which will be the end of nearly anything.

He is the hardest thing a tyranid player can field. He is fast, his durability is awesome and his fire power will be feared by everyone.
If we take a look at the different armies we will see that he is effective against anyone. he can cause a large amount of wounds which is the end of whether many models ( orks with a 6+ save) or some well armoured models ( Terminators with a 2 + save)
Completely new tyranid players often say that they think its not fair that tyranids has no AP - well we dont need it ;) If you want to win a game you have 2 ways:

1. have elite troops with a good AP to make shure every shot is 1 dead model
2. have a mass of troops or firepower with a bad AP to cause as many wounds as possible. Cause even a 2 + armour will go down if he deals with 10 wounds ;)

If you want to play this monster you should give him implant attack cause his stats are not bad and he can easiyl handel CC even if he's build up for the shooting phase. We boost his CC Potential with the Implant Attack:

My suggestion:
Tyrant with BS, Toxin, Wings, Implant Attack, 2 x Twin linked Devourer, warpfield

Now he is perfectly equipped. He shoots 12 shots with the hit and wounds roll rerollable, he is very mobil with his 12 inches flight movement, he is a total killer of anything with more W ( character models, monstreous creatures etc.)

He could probably shoot his 12 shoots into a five man strong terminator squad with attached HQ killing 1 or two ( in lucky cases even 3-4) and then attacking the unit and kill the attached enemy HQ with the Implant attack.

If you get the opportunity you can field 2 of this beast 1 with wings and one with a tyrant guard or even alone to keep him cheap.

A walking tyrant (no matter if he takes the guard or not) could be equipped like this:

MASSIV VARIANT:

Tyrant with BS, Chitin, 2 x Twin linked Devourer +1-3 Guards with Lash Whipes

The idea here is that he has a 2 + save to protect him well against bolter etc. The guards will take lascannon shots and anythinge lse with AP2. With the new wound system you can name the model which takes the wound so you can lay the AP 3 or worse shots onto the tyrant ( well not everything but he could take some AP3 shots to save the guards from it) and the AP2 shots on the guard.

There is a little trick with this squad which was discussed lately in several tactic boards and we came to the conqlusion that we can easily get a 4+ cover save for this unit from nearly everything ( yes gaunts,too):
I will show you how in the gaunt section.

CHEAP VARIANT:
Tyrant with BS, 2 x Twin linked Devourer

This is the cheaper version of it. Many players like to field nearly blank tyranids because the stats are superb and we would rather ruin it when making it expensive. I would take this beast if I going to play on unristricted tournements and having 2 HQ choices. never take this before the Deviltyrant. The flying shooting machine is a must have ;)




Broodlord:

The Broodlord is the new HQ choice we got in the current codex. He is a good choice if you play under restricted rules but he cant compete against the possibility to take 2 tyrants.
He is pretty expensive if you look at the fact that he HAVE TO take a genestealer retiune. Another fact which makes him stand back behind the tyrants is that he makes the genestealer slower because he takes their ability to use the fleet of foot rule.
We get infiltration for that but due to the rules of the 5th edition we can have up to 6 broods of infiltrating genestealers via the scuttler biomorph AND they can still use the fleet rule.

So a broodord ( who gets shot to death most of the time) doesnt make much sense anymore. But for a Genestealer cult fluff list he is still a solid choice to make if you want to play a Cult Background list using the tyranid codex.

If you want to play this Beast I'd suggest to give him the Feeder Tendrill Biomorph becasue then the whole Brood can reroll their rolls to hit . Another good choice is the Carapace and the Toxin biomorph.
The retiune should be either kept small and equipped with the carapace biomorph to get a save against bolter fire or kept naked and increase the size of the Brood.

Tyranid Warriors:

I will talk about the warriors in the elite section because I think they belong there. ;)

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Last edited by Terrorfex on Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:36 am 
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TROOPS:

Hormagaunts:

Hormagaunts are the most expensive Gaunt unit the current codex can bring. They arnet that bad on the first view. 10 Points for 3 Attacks when charging AND 12 inches to attack which will asure that they will get their 3 attacks.
But still, Hormagaunst arent seen in any tournement list.
Why is that so? Well it has something to do with the evolution of the tyranid armies in the last time. After the 5th edition came up some major parts of the gameplay have changed.
One of these parts is the combat resolution. Large Broods of Gaunts have just outnumbered the enemy during the last editions but now the inflicted Wounds are important.
So it will be like that, that a huge gaunt brood attacs and will get slain in the combat resolution because of their bad strength of 3.
They cant inflict enough wounds to win combat resolution. While Hormagaunts are awesome against eldar , imperial guard or anything with T3 they cannot compete against strong tournement lists.
Increasing their strength to 4 is not an option because it makes them even more expensive.
So after all Hormagaunts wont be seen on the tables very often before the combat resolution changes again.

Termagaunts:

Termagaunts ( Just Gaunts with Fleshborers)are still a solid choice for a tyranid army. They combine cheapness with a solid fire power. Strength 4 AND reroll wounds is something the enemy has to deal with. Due to the combat resolution (read Hormagaunts for more informations) you cannot use them as a blocker anymore. But you can still use them to support your firepower. Due to the new much more destructive gameplay without victory points you can use them free to do some dirty tricks I will talk about when I come to the spinegaunts. Without Number is the word of the day

Spinegaunts:
Spinegaunts ( Just Gaunts with Spinefists) are our cheapest unit in the codex. They're not the best shooter but are the most played Gaunts of them all due to their very low point costs of 5 Points/model. For 5 points they're still awesome becasue of their twin linked weapon they can inflict some damage on everything with T3.
But these gaunts are so famous for their firepower but for their cheapness and the dirty tricks they can do.
I'd suggest to make them WoN (Without Numbers) and keep them small ( 8-10 Models) so you can use the following tricks with these guys:

1. The Common Shield:
NEED: GAUNTS


Gaunts of every type can shield other gaunts, warriors, etc. to give them a 4+ cover save. A save against a lascannon is more worth then any firepower the gaunts can bring.

2. The Advanced Shield:
NEED: GAUNTS WoN


This tactic is used to protect your shooty tyranids from mean powerfists and any other close combat stuff like a 30 man ork mob or a terminator squad etc.
You have your 2-3 fexs or tyrants standing 3 or 4 inches away from your table edge and you shot 3 rounds into a closing in ork army- you dont know what to do becasue you have not much space left behind you to move backwards.
Now the advanced gaunt shield comes into play.
You move towards the orks ( yes I am not insane). Your gaunts brood moves to the ork mob keeping the needed 1 inch distance towards them.
Your fexes/tyrants keep 1 inch distance behind the gaunts.
Make shure that the gaunts are all in the front of the ork mob so they cannot charge the big bugs.
The orks will have to attack the gaunts, killing them but due to the new sweeping advance rule they cannor attack the big bugs. One round more to shoot at them.
The WoN Gaunts come into play from your table edge and move right back in front of the big bugs. the same game again and again and again. ;)
The enemy has to shoot down the gaunts if he wants to attack the big bugs. ( orks have a problem with their BS of 2)
If you want to make shure the enemy wont get you use 2 broods of gaunts behind each other. This way you will kill the stupid orks.

3. The Guard-Gaunt Shield:
NEED: -GAUNTS + TYRANT GUARD + TYRANT


This trick is to give your monstreous creature tyrant a 4+ cover save with gaunts ;)
yes it works. You need a tyrant Guard with his Tyrant and a gaunt brood. The rules say that a unit with 50 % in cover gain a 4+ cover save.
The tyrant cannot get targeted becasue of the guard so the enemy has to shoot at the guard. the guard is an infantry model, getting his 4 + save from the gaunts as any other infantry model. And since the guard is 50 % of the unit ( 50 % guard / 50 % tyrant) the tyrant gets his 4 + save, too. ;)

Rippers:

Rippers are one of the less used tyranid units ever. They have the same problem like Hormagaunts, they're to expensive.
And like the Hormagaunts they look pretty good on the first view, 3 Wounds etc.
But the probleme here is that they cant hold objectives. Something which is essential in the 5th edition.
So here we have an expensive troop choice which cant hold objectives.....and thats it - no more words ;)

The problem with them in the 5th edition is that their major role in the army ( making them leaping and bind the enemy in CC hindering him to shoot) cannot longer be used due to combat resolution.

So Rippers wont be seen anymore in the next time.

Genestealer:

Well here we have our hard hitters. A little bit weakened due to the rending rules change but still awesome because of the new prefered enemy rule and the fact that they can infiltrate and imerge from the table edges.

Genestealer were ever a good choice. Since the first edition they teached our enemys the word fear. Their CC abilitys are legendary and seconded just by a few other choices of the prey races ^^( for example eldar banshees)

So these Guys would be awesome in elite or fast section BUT they are our troops! Not only that they are nearly undefeatable in CC but they can hold objectives which is essential in the 5th edition.

So make shure you dont leave the house without these dudes. The best way to play them is equipping them with the ''scuttler'' and the ''feeder tendrill'' biomorph which allows them to rereoll failed attempts to hit and let them infiltrate. And this for only 20 points! This sounds much on the first view but compare them to tyranid warriors and you will see how good this guys are.

I'd suggest to take 3 x 6 scuttler, feeder stealer in smaller games ( like 1000 pts) and 3 x 8 on larger games.

There are not much tricks you can do with stealer - let them come from the edges with the scuttler biomorph and they will bring death to your enemy.
Take out units like imperial weapon teams , devastor units and everything else which stands in the deployement zone of your enemy and shoots at you.

Stay away from flamers! they are your only real thread!

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Last edited by Terrorfex on Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:39 am, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:37 am 
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Tyranid Warriors:

Well warriors.....where to begin... I think they're a solid unit. Not the best choice you can make but not a uge point waste. I'd never take them on tournements if I dont have to ( due to restrictions etc.) but they're not that bad.
I think warriors have becomme less famous in the 5th edition becuse they're pretty useless and overpriced now. We dont need synapse anymore becasue we only play less and very small gaunt units, less or no ravener or anything else which would need synapse.
So synapse is not that needed anymore. And in case of CC and Shooty we have better choices to fulfill these tasks.
if you still want to use warriors ( or you have to due to tournement restrictions) I'd play units of 4 warriors becasue it is the best size for them. (Proven thousand times in many battles ^^)

CC Warriors:

The old school close combat warrior was a often seen unit in the 4th edition. It was fast, strong and haad the synapse special rule. But the CC warrior was also very expensive and the cuurent edition doesnt need synapse anymore. So Genestealer have taken the spotlight and the CC warrior became uselesss due to its high points costs and the changed rending rule. Stealer can take Feeder tendrill to reroll their hits to soften out the screwd up rending rule. Warriors cant take these biomoprhs and we get 2 stealer for 1 warrior + the stealer can infiltrate, reroll the hits and is a troop choice!!!

Here is an example of the old school CC warrior:
Warrior with Adrenal Glands (InI+Ws), Toxin sacs, Leaping, Extended Carapace, Scything Talons and Rending Claws


Shooty Warriors:

Well if we see warriors in the 5th edition, we will see these guys. They support our fire power and keep their heads out of anything relied to CC.
Equipped with Deathspitters and sometimes a venom cannon or a barbed strangler they can take out huge ork mobs or any other less armoured infantry and even light armoured tanks or walkers.
They're not seen that often simply because a solid elite carnifex will deal with their problemes much easier and for less point costs.

Here is an example for the old school shooty warrior:
Warrior with Toxin Sacs, Sything Talons and Death Spitter


Elite Carnifexes:

Here we have the reason for what we are hated so much - Elite carnifexes. The reason why we can field up to 6 fexes when the enemy gets even scared be 2 of them. The reason why is becuse they're so damn effective if we compare their in-game-performance with their point costs. These beasts are worth every single point! We can field these monsters in games over 1500 pts. They have to cost 114 pts maximum and the following 3 variants are the most famous of them:

1. The Devourer Fex: (aka Dakka-Dakka-Fex, aka Devil-Fex, aka Neurofex)

Equipped with 2 twin linked devourers and enhanced senses this beast shoots 8 shots with S6 with rerollable attempts to hit and wound. It doesnt matter what you shoot - terminators or orks - thex will go home - Amen ( For more information of devourer shoots please read under the Hive tyrant section)

Carnifex, Enhanced senses, 2 x twin linked devourers------->113 P

2. The Strangler-Fex: (aka Piefex)


Equipped with a barbed Strangler and scything talons this beast is the number one contender for the elite fex throne. He can deal with nasty ork mobs or destroy a tank wit its S8 template. I am personal still not shure what I like more - the Devilfex or the Stranglerfex. But I think we have to realize that the stranglerfex is a little bit better becasue of its range. He can shoot from turn 1 while the Devilfex has to run in the first round to get into his 18 inches shooting range. So I think the Piefex will be the future of the tyrand elite section.

Carnifex, scything Talons, Barbed Strangler------------------->113 P

3. The old school screamer killer:


Equipped with 2 x scything Talons and Adrenal Glands this Beast is the one and only incarnation of all carnifex. Sad that he isnt very effective in game because CC isnt the best thing in a tyranid army anymore but I listed him up just for nostalgic reasons. ;)

Lictors:

Now we see the poor weak link in the tyranid hive. Lictors are one of the two codex entries which can be completely ignored right now. I hate to say it ( not only because the lictor is one of my favourite nids) but this guy is such a point waste.
I mean come on, 80 points for this poor stats and not very good special rules?
No toughness, no armour, not that many attacks etc.
Yes he has a good cover save- which is useless becasue he has to get into CC to o anything. Yes he can fall back - but for what if he gets killed in 99 % of all Close Combats.
So what is left ...the pheromone trail - the only usefull thing but I wont spend 80 points on this. Reduce its costs to 60, give him 6 attacks and, one more wound, a
4+ cover save and let him fall bacl before enemy attacks are dealt and he would be the old CC monster which was feared back in the days. So you'd have to kill him by shooting.

The lictor is the weakest tyranid along with the biovore. I'd suggest to pint them for the showcase ...and leave him there until the next codex ( hopefully) makes him better.

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Last edited by Terrorfex on Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:37 am 
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FAST:

This is our weakest section. We have Gargoyles, Spore MIne Clusters, Raveners and Flying Warriors + Flying Rippers. Not the best choices imo but I'll break it down for you:

Gargoyles:

Not widely used - not because we dont like them - simply becasue they're metal units which are not transportable without destroying them completely. So we have either build plastic gargoyles or have a very very safe transporting method.

One use is hiding a Flying Tyrant behind them. They may be a little bit too expensive but with the solid firepower of a Termagaunt and a bio plasma attack they are quite solid overall.
If we ever get the pleasure of having plastic Gargoyless, we will discover further use of these critters ;)

Spore Mine Clusters:

Useless!!!! A unit that gives our enemy an instant kill point no matter what he does- this is insane in V5! If they would be destructive I would take some for non kill point missions but like they are, they're wasted points. Sad but true - I cant say anything positive about these little ballons :(

Raveners:

Another victim of the 5th edition - the Ravener- was a usefull, very effective Tyranid in the 4th edition. 5 rending attacks and a scary fastness he was usefull for pretty much everything. From taking out a single weak character to ganging up in combi attacks.
It was common to play 3 single raveners so the fast attack section of the FoC was full and the enemy could kill only one with one unit.
These three beasts would be 3 kill points right now and with the weakened rending rules, they have been kicked out of most Tyranid lists. Very sad becasue I think they're an awesome brood. The fluff is awesome , the model is awesome and the stats are awesome. They simply got left behind by the new main rules ;(

Flying Warriors:

Same here as with the walking variant. I wouldn't take them if no-one forced them on me.
They're even weaker due to the high point costs of the wings, they won't get cover from most other broods AND they can't have extended carapace. Sadly. a waste of points here too.

Flying Rippers:

Ditto to the Flying Warrors - way too expensive, no ability to hold objectives, no combat skills, no durability, no nothing........no cookies ;)

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Last edited by Terrorfex on Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:38 am 
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HEAVY:

So we come to the final section. The section where the big, bad boys rule. We will brake the 3 different units down to see what they do and how effective they are in the 5th edition.

Zoantrophes:

I have to say that I have splitted feelings for. On the one hand they're our only Lascannon-like creatures and our specialists to blow up landraiders and monoliths.
CC is nearly impossible since a landraider will move 12 inches if a fex is around and so a fex or tyrant etc. will only hit on a 6. And since CC Nids are rare in the 5th edition our range beasts has to deal with those tanks.
And this is why I have splitted feelings for the trophes. Since they're our only tank busters they should be more reliable then they actualy are.
let us brake the facts down.
We habe a Zoantrophe with warp Blast and we are going to attack a landraider ( or anything else with a armour of 14) :

1-The trophe has to be in range ( 18 inches - not that of a problem if we think about it but look at this- if the trophe is in range with 18 inches, the terminator squad ( or whatever) in the landraider is in attack range,too!!!!!
It moves 12 inches, deploy within 2 inches and attack you 6 inches - BOOM, Trophe gone.
2- The trophe has to pass a moral check for the great blast ( with a moral of 10 that is the smallest thing to handel with)
3- The Thrope has to hit. Now it begins to get difficult. We need a 4 to hit. Still 50 % but I can tell you from my trophes......well they act as If they'd have BS1. But statistic wise it is 50 %. So until now we habe 50 % to hit.
4-the thrope has to penetrate. Here we need a 5 to make serious dammage since a 4 would just be a glancing hit. This cuts our chances to blow the tank up more then in half.

-We have to roll a 4 to do a good result . Any other result is nearly worthless. A 4 immobalizes the tank which is close to instant death since a fex will most likely destroy it in CC. 5 and 6 is destroyes,too.

CONCLUSION OF A ZOANTROPHE ATTACKING A LANDRAIDER:

4 to hit, 5 to penetrate , 4 to a good result


lets say.... the odds are against us. I think the only tank busters should be a little more reliable.
Anyway I never go out without them. Just because the Fluff is awesome and they MAY do something sometimes. A Full Brood of 3 with warp Blast and Synapse will ensure you are not shot down by a single lascannon etc.

I use them as shields for my tyrants most of the time. They float high enough to cover them if they're together ( 2 trophes should be enough)

Another way to use the trophes is to kill infantry. With their AP 3 they can kill marines and other enemys with a 3 + armour save.

Carnifex:

Here they come! The stars of the tyranids. The reason why so many other players keep whining and complaining about the current tyranid codex. But the fexes are the first thing a new tyranid player will use in the wrong way.
We all know the following thought:
''Yeah my carnifex shall be an unbeatable monster I take bonded exoskelleton, reinforced chitin and extended carapace.....oh and regeneration.....both glands....and of couse strength 10. Oh and Implant Attack, Enhanced Senses and Toxic Miasma. Oh shit now it cotst 250 P -.-''

Most of the new players want these power fexes with all biomorphs. But the problem is that these beasts are point graves! You have to think about the value and how the model can bring this value in the game.

A 250 point fex with all those biomorphs and CC weapons will never bring his value back since the enemy will avoid him, eather shoot him down or completey ignore him and counter him out. A 250 point fex with shooting weapons won't bring his value back ,too since the nid weapons are not effective enough to destroy great amount of points.

The point I wanna make is that you should not equip to many biomorphs and keep the fexes cheap. This will allow them to bring their value back in the game. Ask yourself how effective a biomoprh is. For example bonded exoskelleton. It gives you T 7 but does a lascannon or a melter care about this?? No as it will wound you on a 2. So this Biomorph is not that good. Or look at extended carapace. It gives you a 2 + Armour save but does a lascannon or a melter care? No because both negate your armour. So both T7 and 2 + armour save are a waste of points if a lascannon or a melter etc. hits you.
But look at reinforced chitin. It gives you +1 W for only 15 points!! This is worth it since it keeps your fex alive.

You have to decide what role your fex shall play in the game. CC or Shooting. As we discussed before both together will fail. Then you Have to take the biomorphs which are usefull for the role the fex plays.
Here is the example for a shooting carnifex:

Fex, enhanced senses, reinforced chitin, Venom Cannon, Barbed Strangler

It has everything it needs: Fire Power and Life -thats it.

This is the Type of Fex which is most usefull imo. It is cheap and brings his firepower from turn 1. It doesnt need to get into position and can act from a far distance to the enemy.

The CC Variant is less effective since the enemy will avoid them and they HAVE TO get into CC to do something. Here is an example of a CC Fex:

Fex, InI+ WS Gland,Toxin, reinforced chitin, Toxic miasma, Tusked 2 x scything Talons


A very important thing I want to point out is that you need to take advantages on the battlefield if they are handed to you. Since nearly everything gives you a 4 + cover save- take this! A lascannon does not care abour armour or toughnes but it DOES care about a 50 % chance to do nothing.
And the cover save doesnt cost any points. Put the fex into cover or put some mid sized models in front of it and you're done.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2009 4:55 pm 
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Biomass

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HEAVY:

Biovores:
Biovores are not used in most competitive tournament lists for 5e.

Biovores are a very unique unit to the Tyranids. They are possibly the worst close combat unit in the game, but at the same time, are probably the best long-range shooter. A typical Biovore brood costs 165 pts, while a typical Sniperfex (Venom, Strangler, Senses, Chitin) costs 163 pts. Whether 3 Biovores are better than a Carnifex is disputable.

Biovores should only be taken in a squad of either 0 or 3. Also, Biovores are most effective using Bio-Acid mines. With AP 3 and 2D6 against vehicles, Bio-Acid Mines work well against heavy infantry and light vehicles (units that every army has at least some of).

Lastly, Biovores are very vulnerable to enemy deep striking, or outflanking units just like any artillery unit. If your opponent has these units, do not deploy your Biovores away from the rest of your army. While the Spore Mines Biovores fire don't count as kill points, the Biovores themselves do. This weakness to enemy reserve units is largely responsible for why they are not seen in competitive play.


Last edited by Multi on Mon May 11, 2009 10:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 5:40 am 
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oh thats right , I completely forgot about the biovores. I will edit this in the next time ;)

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 7:18 pm 
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Huh, I thought that biovores were so obviously awful that you left them out on purpose! :D

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 12:34 pm 
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Apparently it's not obvious why they're not worth it, so perhaps they should be mentioned here.

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Last edited by Multi on Mon May 11, 2009 10:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 7:39 pm 
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Multi wrote:
Please explain why they're awful. Apparently it's not obvious, especially since spore mines fired from Biovores don't count as kill points.


Sure, let me answer:

HEAVY:

Biovores:
Biovores have a unique place in the tyranid army list. They are so dedicated to ranged combat they are pretty much the most awful close combatants in the whole army. They do provide a unique indirect (previously guess range / now barrage) fire weapon. It is also the only heavy weapon in the entire army. (But as we'll see that is not a good thing.) For a dedicated close combat army fire support, and especially indirect fire support, is invaluable. In 2nd to 4th editions biovores could shoot over close combats (which we did a lot) when no-one else could and damage/kill/pin enemies behind. Great.

But in 3rd edition biovores launched sporemines with 5" large blasts (or templates) and the sporemines had much better movement and detonation rules. With the release of the 4th edition codex the sporemines and biovores suffered several effectiveness hits:
1. Blasts were all reduced to 3" small template;
2. The sporemine movement rules were 'streamlined' to the point that made them almost harmless;
3. Biovores were forced to deploy as one brood and fire at the one target;
4. Biovores lost the ability to fire at empty ground to deny it to the enemy. They are now forced to shoot at enemy units;
5. Sporemine salvos were forced to use the 'multiple barrages' rule which seriously hampers the damage they can do; and
6. Despite all these massive reductions in effectiveness biovores cost exactly the same points as in 3rd edition!

Huh. So compared to 3rd edition, biovores and sporemines are a terrible deal. But how do they compare to indirect fire weapons for another close combat orientated army? Lets compare biovores to ork lobbas.
7. Ork lobbas come in big gunz batteries and are not limited to 0-1 choice;
8. With the addition of (cheap) runtherds and extra crew, lobba batteries cna get much more wounds and higher leadership than biovores, making them much more resilient to both shooting and assaults;
9. Lobbas can take (cheap) ammo runts for re-rolls to hit;
10. The most direct comparison is the most cost effective, versatile and cheap frag spore mines. But in this case lobbas have the same range, same blast size and rules, same AP. But they have an extra point point of strength and are half the points!

So the most comparable weapon in any other army in the game is as good or better in every way - but costs half as much. Awesomeness.

And now lets compare biovores to the other heavy support choices available to a tyranid player:
11. Zoanthropes are the other 0-1 choice. And they are the only other AP3 ranged weapons available to us. But those AP3 warpblasts are +2S; and
12. Fire individually not with the awful multiple barrages; and
13. Can fire at different targets to the other members of their brood; and
14. 'Thropes can move independently from each other; and
15. Warpblasts are assault weapons, not heavy so that largely counters the imporved range of the biovores; and
16. Zoanthropes have great armour, leadership and aren't half bad in assaults. Making them much, much more resilient in close and ranged combat; and
17. Zoanthropes can provide invaluable psychic support with synapse, catalyst and psychic screams.
18. Then we have carnifexes. With superior T, W, ld, and Sv carnifexes are much, much more resilient in close and ranged combat;
19. Carnifexes can outshoot biovores. With just one barbed strangler shot a carnifex has: slightly better chance to hit (due to the huge blast), twice the S, will do more wounds (a single 5" blast will cover far more than 3x3" multiple barrage. And since the barbed strangler is an assault weapon and the carnifex has less to fear from advancing, the range of the barbed strangler is effectively 42" +6" a turn. Where as the 48" biovores will never move;
20. A carnifex can take and fire a second ranged weapon increasing the damage over biovores even more, or take a CC weapon making them even further ahead of biovores in assaults; and
21. Bio-acid sporemines are touted as vehicle busting weapons. But compare 3+2d6 armour penetration (average result of just 11) to the carnifex in assault getting 9or10+2d6 (average result of 16 or 17!) Sure the big difference is that the carnifex has to wade across the battlefield to bust open vehicles. But when she gets there she is likely not to hit just once, but a lot. Wrecking even the toughest armour in a single phase. That beats the snot out of having bio-acid mines bounce off each and every shooting phase (when they actually hit).

So in 4th edition it is clear that biovores were not a good choice. But hold onto your hat, because things only get worse in 5th edition!
22. Close combats no longer block Line Of Sight. The one tiny advantage biovores had was their ability to shoot over assaults. But now tyranids and our enemies can shoot through assaults all day long; and
23. Due to rule changes to outnumbering, no retreat!, rending and running tyranids have gone from the premier fast assault army of the 40k universe, to being pretty crappy in assault. :( So pretty much every competitive tyranid army focuses on shooting. And when your entire army is shooting, what need do you have for expensive indirect fire that does bugger all damage? None, that's what.

But several people have said "Sporemines launched from biovores don't give up kill points! Surely biovores are good then." No, that just means there are only 23 reasons biovores suck, not 24.

Conclusion:
A. Biovores have gotten steadily worse in every edition since second.
B. Every other army in the game has access to better and cheaper shooting units than biovores.
C. Even us tyranids have access to better (and sometimes cheaper) shooting units.
D. A brood of biovores not only wastes points, but also a valuable Heavy Support slot.

On top of that, biovores are brutally expensive in real money. And the model is widely considered so ugly that many gamers refuse to use them.
:?

I love my 2nd edition biovores. I think they look cute as hell. But I rarely ever use them in games. They are simply reserved for apocalypse where I don't play seriously at all.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 7:43 pm 
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Thread split and moved to keep this on topic.

If you want to discuss the merits or lack there of, please do so in the species specific tactics and advice thread.

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 1:38 am 
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Hatchling

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Yaleling wrote:
21. Bio-acid sporemines are touted as vehicle busting weapons. But compare 3+2d6 armour penetration (average result of just 11) to the carnifex in assault getting 9or10+2d6 (average result of 16 or 17!)
Check the math real quick and you'll see that bio-acid spore mines are even worse! 3+2d6 is an AVERAGE of 10 for armor penetration. 10. A bloody GLANCE on the LOWEST AV. On average. Bioacid sucks.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:42 am 
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Biomass

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just a quick fix, scuttlers give scouting, not infiltration. Making a squad with a brood lord quite nice still.

Also, if you do bring one with a brood lord, you give the brood lord feeder tendrils, and give them acid maw, and you get to reroll failed hits and wounds.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:01 pm 
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Little One

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This is gonna need an update...or at the least the thread title changed for now.


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