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 Post subject: Grots and the Aegis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:32 am 
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Biotitan
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In a recent game an Ork Player deployed an Aegis Defense Line with a Quad Gun. This seems like normal procedure for most games, except for one thing. He put Grots to 'man' the guns.

Now, this sounds like a legit plan as their Ballistic Skill is higher than an Ork's. Problem lies here. Can they actually SEE anything? Flyers, sure. I'll give them that. But how about any other targets?

COULD they fire the Quad Gun at normal Infantry?

What do you think?

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 Post subject: Re: Grots and the Aegis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:23 am 
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well, get down to the eye level of the grots, and see. I think with most grots, this means no (I cannot be sure as I don't have any grots about). Which is easily circumvented by placing the quad gun on the edge of the aegis defence line and having one (and only one) grot looking around the corner. That grot can see and fire the quad gun, and the rest cannot even be killed because the enemy has no LoS on them either!

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 Post subject: Re: Grots and the Aegis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:50 pm 
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I guess this question really is 'do I need line of sight from the gun or the grot?'

The rules say the gun is fired as if it were the grot's weapon using the normal shooting rules, so if the grot can't see, it can't fire. This does however imply that if the grot can see you but the gun is hidden, he can still fire. Which is odd.

One thing worth remembering though is that even though a grot's eyes are lower than the aegis, unless they are literally at it's edge they will probably be able to see tall models, like monsters and tanks, which are probably the main targets for the emplaced weapons other than flyers.

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 Post subject: Re: Grots and the Aegis
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:12 am 
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I think a weapon like the quad gun of the aegis line is meant to be used like artillery - so, if I remember correctly, you need LoS both from the firing model AND the gun piece.

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 Post subject: Re: Grots and the Aegis
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:41 am 
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I've seen a similar issue before - whether the grots could just see over the Aegis and the response on the forum posted was a resounding no. However, my stance was that sure if you have grots 1" or 2" from the Defence Line then no they wouldn't be able to see over it but if they're touching the wall then I think they can. Yes you have to look from the models eye view but your models are not statues, they move and I see no reason why a model touching terrain wouldn't pull itself up to the top of the wall, take a pot shot and then drop down. That's not impossible, they can afterall climb 3" up a ruin with no obvious ladders or aids.

So I think when they're 'hull down' with the terrain it would be acceptable, but to each their own. This has absolutely no bearing on the fact Termagants, with their low shooting position, are often well below the top of the Defence Line, but then you'd imagine them standing up on their hind legs to take advantage of their full height, so why not the grots?

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 Post subject: Re: Grots and the Aegis
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:03 pm 
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I think Centurion has it - the gretchin needs line of sight to the target. That said, I like Vonny's suggestion of treating the gun emplacement as if it were artillery that can be fired by any friendly model (with a ballistic skill). The gun emplacement has the same profile as an immobile artillery piece, and it makes a lot of sense to use these rules (both require LoS) even if the rules don't say to use the artillery rules.



Dwez wrote:
... However, my stance was that sure if you have grots 1" or 2" from the Defence Line then no they wouldn't be able to see over it but if they're touching the wall then I think they can. Yes you have to look from the models eye view but your models are not statues, they move and I see no reason why a model touching terrain wouldn't pull itself up to the top of the wall, take a pot shot and then drop down. That's not impossible, they can after all climb 3" up a ruin with no obvious ladders or aids. ...
I like your position too Dewz, and one of the few things 5th edition did right (See my anti-5th ed bias there? :wink:), was say that models up against an obstacle could lean over it to shoot. I often agree to this in games, but if we agree to it, I insist that if a model can lean over/around an obstacle then it is a viable target in the next player's shooting phase.

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 Post subject: Re: Grots and the Aegis
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:26 am 
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Yaleling wrote:
I insist that if a model can lean over/around an obstacle then it is a viable target in the next player's shooting phase.


That seems fair, back in Adeptus Titanicus the rules were that cover offered minus modifiers to hit, if you weren't 'hull down' you both had to suffer the modifier. But if one model was hull down they didn't. Not that that has any relation to 6th edition or your point but the grots do have a choice - don't shoot and are nto a target or shoot and take the save - which isn't really a bad option.

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 Post subject: Re: Grots and the Aegis
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:51 pm 
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Allowing grots being able to haul themselves up to glance over a low wall brings a lot of other problems though (at least from my perspective). Does this mean space marines can look over a 3" wall (as they can obviously pull themselves up as well), and as such, can a hive tyrant shoot over a 2-story building? A trygon, when it extrends its tail to the fullest, can do some really amazing things then.
And it works vice versa too - I ran with my trygon, so it doesn't have to shoot... It's not hard to imagine it ducking a bit lower to hide behind this land raider wreckage. Can these raveners hide completely behind a 2-inch wall? Could my Hive Tyrant take an example from hormagaunts and move more perpendicular to the ground, thereby eliminating most of the return fire? True LoS already showed that you can do some pretty wicked stuff with kneeling wraithlords, how about wraithlords diving for cover and going tiger-crouching?

The point I guess I'm trying to make is, if you extrapolate on what your model would reasonably be able to do, options become fairly limitless. If you stop looking at the actual model, then there's no way to tell where it'll stop, as it's all objective.

I'm sure it can work well with a group of close friends who play together often, but I'd never advise this as an actual ruling, as I know plenty of people who couldn't handle the responsability :P At least the true LoS is constrained by their mediocre modelling skills (and being called out for 'modelling for advantage).

Edit:
Tl;dr: I'm still with combining centurion's and my vision on this. draw LoS from the grot and the gun, which is likely to see tall models and vehicles and especially flyers over the top of and aegis line. And if all else fails, keep one grot minimum next to the aegis for LoS

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 Post subject: Re: Grots and the Aegis
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:08 pm 
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Obviously, GeeDub hates us, and Rippers CANNOT run the Aegis. But what about Nurglings??

I recall something about Swarms not being able to, but not sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Grots and the Aegis
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:00 pm 
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I haven't come across a rule that says swarms can't man artillery or gun emplacements. But nurglings are BS0 and so can't shoot. (Please, no-one point out to necron players that conoptek scarabs are BS2.)

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 Post subject: Re: Grots and the Aegis
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:37 am 
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Nurglings are BS3 by the way.

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 Post subject: Re: Grots and the Aegis
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:22 am 
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MysteryShadow wrote:
Nurglings are BS3 by the way.
Ah, I was going off the profile in the back of the rulebook.

Well I guess it can then. I can't find anything in the Swarms, Artillery, Emplaced Weapons, Gun Emplacement rules that prevent swarms from shooting them. I can't find anything in the FAQ's that changes any of them either. :?

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